Matty: [00:00:08] Welcome to Arrested DevOps, episode 33, DevOps Culture Change. I’m your host, Matt Stratton, @MattStratton on Twitter. Arrested DevOps is brought to you by TenthMagnitude, a cloud services company that figures if you’re listening to this podcast, you are pretty cool. You can find out about joining their cloud services team at www.arresteddevops.com/10thmagnitude. This episode is also sponsored by PagerDuty. PagerDuty eliminates the noise, chaos, and manual processes across the entire incident lifecycle to decrease resolution time. PagerDuty is trusted by companies like Etsy, Nike, and GitHub. To sign up for a free 14-day trial, visit arresteddevops.com/pagerduty. PagerDuty. And we are also brought to you by Datadog, a monitoring service for scaling cloud infrastructures that bridges together data from servers, databases, apps, and other tools. Datadog provides dev and ops teams with insights from their cloud environments that keep applications running smoothly. Datadog is available for a 14-day free trial at arresteddevops.com/datadog33.

[00:01:23] So DevOps is often referred to with the term CAMS, which stands for culture, automation, measurement, and sharing. Changing the culture of an organization is one of the toughest parts. We talk a lot about what the culture should be like in terms of empathy, in terms of following lean practices and reducing silos and all that other stuff, but oftentimes we gloss over the how And I think that’s one of the big challenges people face. They say, I want to know how do I change an organization and especially how do I change the culture of my organization. So joining me today is Bill Joy of the Joy Group who helps organizations develop their full potential. So Bill, would you like to introduce yourself a little bit? Tell us a little bit about what you and the Joy Group do.

Bill: Sure. Thank you, Matt, very much. Yes, the Joy Group was established to, as you mentioned, to help organizations develop their full potential. So what I do is I come into organizations mostly through the leadership track, and I help organizations develop leadership, develop managers, develop organizations, and oftentimes change is a part of that equation. So I will do executive coaching one-on-one. I will do a lot of training. I will do a lot of facilitating of meetings. I also help organizations look at their organizational structures. And then one of the threads, as I mentioned, is I do a lot of change management. And that’s a very natural place for me to be.

Matty: [00:02:49] Fantastic. So when we talk about doing that type of change management, I think a lot of times we think about change as something that’s a mandate, as something that comes top down. You know, we’ve made jokes on this podcast before that this is for the people who their boss reads about DevOps in the in-flight magazine and comes to them and says, make with the DevOps. If you are someone who is in a position to be top-down, so first we’ll talk about, we’re gonna talk from, you know, listeners, we’ll be talking from both perspectives. So don’t worry if you’re not a C-level executive, don’t turn off the podcast. We’ll talk about everybody. But let’s talk first from someone who is in a position of leadership in an organization. How can you successfully, what are some tips or some approaches to successfully modifying the culture of your organization?

Bill: Sure, and so a couple things about that. Number one, of course, any senior leader mandate any change. They can say, today we have organization structure X and tomorrow it’s going to be organization structure Y. A senior-level executive can say, we will implement Lean strategies and start to do rapid improvement events and start to change the organization from a process standpoint. Of course, we can— any organization from a senior leadership standpoint can actually mandate change. But what I like that you said at the top of this podcast was it’s about the how. And change management rests with the how. I know that sounds kind of intuitive and obvious, but it is absolutely true. So many organizations have a very clear idea of what it is they’re trying to accomplish, whether it’s through process improvement, whether it’s through consolidation, whether it’s through efficiency. It doesn’t matter what it is, what the what is, but it’s the how. So if I’m a senior leader and I want to mandate a change, I can do that. Of course I can. So let’s just say I own a manufacturing company. I’m going to implement lean manufacturing principles inside that organization. I can do that, but it can’t stop there. I have to understand what the infrastructure is going to be, what the organizational culture is going to be, how resistance might or might not play out, who are the key stakeholders. Can one kind of unknowing, unassuming person be such a key stakeholder that they can bring the entire thing down? So I have to be very, very heads up when it comes to organizational dynamics and cultural dynamics. But your question is absolutely right. I, as an executive, can’t mandate a change. So that is absolutely a truth. I have to look at culture. I have to look at resistance. I have to look at the types of organization that I have and the type of organization that I want. But it’s all about the how.

Matty: [00:05:31] Okay. And then similarly, I guess, on the other side of the equation, and to refer, you know, listeners will remember on episode 11, when we talked to Etsy, you can listen to this at arresteddevops.com/11. John Allspaw mentioned, you know, people ask him, they say, John, how can I implement, how can I implement the, you know, DevOps or these, these particular principles within my organization if I’m, you know, coming, coming up from the bottom? And he said, I don’t know, I’ve always been in charge. And I think quite often—

Bill: Nice place to be.

Matty: Yeah. I think quite often, a lot of practitioners see the value of the automation, they see the value of DevOps, you know, they say, okay, I’m drinking the Kool-Aid, I understand why this makes my life better, but I don’t have— but I think a lot of people give up because they say, I don’t have the power, right? I can’t make this change happen. So if I’m someone who’s a practitioner, what are some strategies that I can do to help influence a change in my culture?

Bill: [00:06:35] Terrific. First assessment is, do I know who my influencers are? That’s— and it may or may not be senior leaders. I think one of the mistakes I see change agents making is that they go to the top, and that may not actually be the place where change will take place. So number one, do I know who my influencers are? Number 2, and this is maybe a strange kind of nomenclature to say, but everybody in change leadership, change management, is a salesperson. What does a good salesperson do? Salesperson walks into client office, starts to read, right? They look to see, oh, they’ve got family pictures of their kids skiing.

Matty: Okay.

Bill: Oh no, they don’t. They have nothing. It’s a sterile office. Oh, okay. This person likes data like crazy. And so maybe, maybe I need to pitch it to the data person. Maybe I need to pitch it to the sterile person. Maybe I need to pitch it to the family person. And that’s the key. So number one, do I know who my influencers are? Number 2, do I know how they operate and become a temporary salesperson in order for me to pitch an idea so it’s customized to them? So bottom line, Matt, change leadership is about influencing without authority. And that’s why so many people give up because it’s like, I don’t have the power. And so I’m just gonna give up. What I’d rather see people do is to start to experiment with some pilots or start to experiment with small pieces of change to say, okay, so if I’m reading this correctly, senior leaders that be key influencers that are, that are at play. They’re all about efficiency. So if I can start small and say this project, this implementation, this solution can create more efficiency, then I’m going to start doing that. And then what do I do? I’ll sell it that way. And so, or maybe it’s an organization that’s starting to look at making sure that there’s a whole lot of collaboration or there’s a whole lot of retention. Of the organization and of talent. Okay, so I pitch it to that. So it’s about pitching. And I don’t think that we think of ourselves as change leaders as salespeople. I don’t think we see ourselves as influencers who can actually influence. If I put on a little different hat, I gotta lose the technology hat temporarily. And I think what we do is we can get righteous. We can say, I know the right answer. Well, good for you. I’m so glad you have the right answer. I know you have the right solution.

Matty: [00:08:55] Good for you.

Bill: Who’s going to buy it?

Matty: Patrick Dubois, who’s one of the folks who kind of started this movement or whatnot, made a comment a while ago where he said we need to stop calling it DevOps and just start calling it common sense because that’s what it is. So, when you get it, it seems like common sense. And I think the challenge is figuring out, like you said, just because it makes perfect sense to you in your frame, in your vision, it’s not going to look the same way to the CFO. It’s not going to look the same way to a product owner. And we have to think about, in a way, so we talk a lot in DevOps about empathy and about how we work together with empathy, but it’s not, hey, if I’m an ops person, I need to have empathy for developers and what they’re trying to do. And the developers need to have empathy for the people who are on call, but the technologists need to be able to walk a mile in the finance officer’s shoes, right? Or in the CEO’s shoes and say what’s important. And I think that’s the hard work, right? Is figuring out how your business actually works and who does what it is.

Bill: [00:10:02] So, Ty, I’m going to take the word empathy and I’m going to ratchet it up into another bucket called emotional intelligence. So empathy is a piece of emotional intelligence. I understand what you’re going through. I understand how difficult this is. But then if I’m really emotionally intelligent, I’ll know what makes you tick and be able to then customize my message and my platform and my solution to that. So bottom line, I need to be selfless and get out of my own way. But I know that we can get really myopic and really stubborn, and we’re like, I have the right answer. Why aren’t they, why aren’t they adopting it? It’s so crystal clear to me. And whenever I hear it’s so crystal clear to me, whenever I work with my clients, obviously major, major, major flags pop up because it’s crystal clear to you. That means to me you’ve lost empathy. You’ve lost your ability to have emotional intelligence. You’ve lost your ability to get out of your own way and do the upfront work. Study after study, time after time, you will know that. Why do you think change fails? It’s people stuff over and over and over and over again. At the top of the podcast, you said that how it’s the how it’s it’s it’s not the what it’s so rarely the what now the what could be amiss. We missed the target. We missed what Lean can do for us, whatever it might be. But it’s, it’s the how every single time. It’s the how. So I hope that we can talk more about giving more, some more tips as we go along today, um, with what I exactly what I mean by the how, because that’s, it is the key. So I don’t want to just be vague and say, oh yeah, absolutely.

Matty: [00:11:33] Because that’s what’s, that’s what’s been missing, right? You know, through this whole thing.

Bill: Yeah. So I’ll give you examples. I’ll talk about some clients. I’ll talk about some past and present situations that might be able to illuminate some of that how that we’re talking about.

Matty: That’s fantastic. I think that’s going to be very, very useful to folks. So one thing, and just to give a little bit of a— we didn’t really do this in the introduction, but Bill and I have a little bit of a past back in a previous position, previous employer. Bill ran a lot of our training around management, and I took management training and director training from Bill, and a lot of what I learned from that sticks with me from a leadership perspective, but also one thing that I was thinking about recently when talking about like, how do you change culture? And I remember not all the details, but I remember some of the specifics, but we talked about organizations having personalities and being able to identify the personality of your organization. And also somehow, sometimes you think or your organization claims to have a certain personality, but it’s really different. So can you tell us a little bit about what that means to, to have a personality and how you can help identify your organization’s personality?

Bill: [00:12:53] So a couple things about that, Matt. Number one, I don’t think it’s ever wise to have the tagline of change as culture change. We’re going to change the culture. I think that culture changes through change initiatives, but having cultural change as the— here’s what we’re going to do. My experience, cultures change for one of two reasons. Most importantly, and easy— more easily, they are changed by pain. We lost a major client, we have 20% less revenues, We had to have a layoff. We had to have a reduction in force. We’ve had an SEC filing and we’ve had somebody mandate something to us, some outside governing body. So change that’s coerced, that’s forced upon us, has a tendency then to start to look at the culture piece of it. The second piece that happens around culture change is I wake up as an executive and say, you know what, I think I want to build a different type of business. Business here. And so I find more success, to be honest with you, with pain-induced culture change than I do when an executive reads a magazine on an airplane or reads a book and says, I think we should be more empathetic as an organization. It’s like, okay, for what end? You happen to read a self-help book on a plane.

Matty: [00:14:15] So the culture— the change of the culture is not the outcome that you’re intending, it’s a way to achieve an outcome.

Bill: Correct. Inevitably, inevitably, if change works, then the culture will follow. I don’t know of any organization in my 20-plus years of doing this work that I would say that organization needs to have an overhaul culturally. Because what we want to do as change leaders is we want to say, what are the parts of the culture we want to keep that are good and that are pure? And what are the parts of the culture that we want to shake up a bit? And how do we want to do that? I’ve never seen, you know, there are 5 aspects that underpin this culture, let’s change all 5 of them. So all of that kind of frame Then says about personalities. And anybody who’s listening to this podcast who’s been working for any organization, you feel the culture almost immediately, you know, within a week, you know, are we a group of people who really value getting to know each other? We know each other’s names. We drink beer and do shots after work. It’s collaborative. It’s collegial. It’s affiliative. You know, it feels like a family in there. And everybody loves each other, you know, and it’s just, and that’s, and that’s a cultural piece. Another type of culture would be, no, we come in, we get our stuff done. Um, we don’t really talk a whole lot and we’re just kicking it and making money like, like hand over fist. But I don’t really know you very well. It doesn’t matter. I don’t wanna know you very well.

Matty: [00:15:39] Right.

Bill: So don’t tell me anything about yourself cuz we’re here to get stuff done. And so different cultures are defined by different kind of personalities. Some, are hell-bent on methodology and processes and templates and order and control and make sure that you fill out this and this and this and this. And what happens in organizations that are more order-based as a personality, they’re really bound to their processes and they believe those processes are going to make them efficient. And so there are lots of different types of culture, you know, cultural pieces. And during the training that we went through, We did a couple different pieces. So one is many organizations do a psychometric tool. The mother of psychometric tools is something called Myers-Briggs Type Indicator. I don’t use that much in training because it takes a long time to get through. I use Myers-Briggs a lot when I do individual coaching or when I work with small groups. But there are many, many, many derivatives of Jungian theory, and one of them that we used when we worked together was called DiSC Profile. And so maybe I could define myself by dominant influence, steadiness, or conscientiousness. And you can start to see when you start to look at how we start to hire, then we start to hire in our likeness. And then we wonder how cultures get shifted and changed. It’s like, well, I hire mini-mes all day. That’s what I do. And so look, around me I have what in our language we call high Cs, high conscientiousness people. Look at it. We have a whole, a whole band of conscientiousness people. How did that happen? Well, because we now have a bias. We have an unconscious bias for conscientiousness hiring, and that’s how cultures get formed. And so my, my job— and so just to explain a little bit— so dominant cultures: speed, speed, speed, speed. Oh, by the way, speed and output. Unvarnished. Brash, rude, typically don’t give a shit much, and let’s just go. So it’s about getting stuff done. That’s what I want to do. Influence cultures. Family. Hey, I know you and you know me, and we’re extroverted. So there’s a— so when I walk into an organization that’s loud and active and you can start to see the activity, then you probably have a high I culture, a high influencing culture. Steadiness. Nicest people on earth, but quiet. So they form relationships, but more intimately, more privately. And so oftentimes what I see with high S cultures, steadiness cultures, high loyalty, high nice, very, very even-keeled, but also low risk. And then I mentioned conscientiousness. Conscientiousness is about detail, templates, getting things done correctly. And of all 4 styles, more risk-averse. You can hop on anywhere and take one of these tests. I mean, you can type in DiSC profile, you can type in Myers-Briggs, as long as you understand that cultures are embedded and we start to then feed that culture. And all of a sudden, let’s just say for example, we have a very high C culture and our change initiative is to make it high D. We’re just gonna take— we’re just gonna make— we’re gonna take— make decisions, we’re gonna take activity, we’re going to, you know, make sure that we steamroll it, you know, let’s just blaze ahead. Well, that’s going to be a complete shock to a C type of culture. So one of the hows is, as a practitioner, can I read the culture? Do I have affiliation in there? Do I have, let’s charge ahead and achievement? Do I have more of a control and process? Do I have a nice quiet culture where nobody leaves? What do I have? And then I can start to look. Because some cultures, quite honestly, are more difficult to change. Let’s just say, for example, D cultures. D cultures are incredibly easy to change if I give you a compelling business reason why we will do things faster, better, smarter, and make more money.

Matty: [00:19:38] Then you’re— let’s go, right? That’s great. If we think along the principles of switching to more of a lean and experimentation thing, and you’re a high C culture, that’s gonna— that’s a shock to the system because you’re inherently saying, I want to change to a way where we take risk, calculated risk, but I don’t see 100 paces down the road.

Bill: And let’s just say, you know, you are going to do a rapid improvement event in a Lean way with a high C person, and all of a sudden her desk looks fundamentally different on Monday than it did on Friday, and all her tools So, C’s are tactile. So, and they have to feel it, right? And so, my tools are gone from my desk. I will go get my tools.

Matty: Yeah.

Bill: Because now I’m pissed.

Matty: Right.

Bill: And so, but understanding that and saying, wait a second, how then do I make sure that I prepare her from Friday to Monday in a C type of way becomes the key. So, sometimes the C cultures may be more difficult to change. But it’s all about making sure I’m transparent, transparent. And by the way, transparent. It’s obvious. It’s known. I need a lot of education because what happens when I start to change a C culture, one of the identity crises that someone who possesses a high C type is I will start to, I will start to wonder whether I’m going to be competent on Monday. I’m competent on Friday, but am I competent on Monday. And being able to read that has to be key. So some of you may think that high cultures may be your highest maintenance, but they’re actually not. Some of you may say your highest C cultures are the hardest to change, but they’re actually not. As long as you’re metered, measured, you have milestones, you prepare, and you make them successful.

Matty: [00:21:34] There’s a— just sort of had an interesting thought. So if we think about the other pieces of DevOps that are, that are kind of key, the automation, the measurement, the sharing, they actually could kind of map a little bit. And I may paint myself into a corner on this, this thing I’m woolgathering about. But I can see, for example, measurement being something that’s very— from what I remember about Cs too, is they like numbers, they like proof, right? So you’re saying measuring this, sharing is a very A or I thing, right? It’s saying we’re collab— a lot of it is a collaboration, is not keeping information in myself. The automation I can see being very much for S, right, where it’s saying we do things very consistently. Correct. And then the D’s are just like, just make me some more money. Let’s go. Yeah, it’s all of it. Give me, give me all the cams.

Bill: That’s correct.

Matty: So I think it’s, uh, they’re all different directions to approach this transformation, but knowing where do you start And different people— and where do you start with different people? Because you talked about the culture of the organization is probably generally a certain way.

Bill: [00:22:39] Correct.

Matty: But individual practitioners, individual influencers will have their different thing that matters to them. So, if I’m talking to somebody who’s an I and my way of doing this is saying, look at all these remarkable dashboards I can build with our— I’m sorry, look at all these metrics I can give you and all these numbers, they’re going to say, I don’t care, right? Right. Or if I can say, look, I can automate all this stuff so it’s consistent, they’re like, I don’t care because we’re getting things done. And I like fighting fires with my friends or whatever, you know. But so you kind of show it, depend, read it, read the person, right? Yeah.

Bill: You know, so one of the key hows is first understanding yourself and how you operate. That’s very key. So as a change leader Understanding that you have a bias for Di, Si, or Se. And by the way, Di, Si, or Se are never pure. We all possess each of those to a different degree. And we’ll also see them coupled. You know, we’ll see a Di together, a Di and a Se together in one person. So you start to see them coupled. Understanding self is the most important part to begin with, because once I understand myself and I say, okay, so I have a very strong Di tendency, So I am probably going to be, during this change management initiative, impatient. I’m going to be impatient. I’m going to be speedy. I’m going to railroad. I will not show empathy. I will want to get stuff done as quickly as possible. All of those, all of those types of things. Understand that I’ve got bias. And by the way, those other styles, more likely than S and a C, is going to really try my patience. So the empathy moving into emotional intelligence becomes becomes the key. So then, first of all, understanding yourself. Secondly, being able to look at your key stakeholder, watch emails, watch language, watch speed of decision-making, watch how they make decisions, watch how many people are involved in decisions. So start to watch for those cues and clues and then start to adapt. And so the adaptation is by far the hardest. I can understand myself. Yeah, I’m an impatient D. Okay, and I understand you, and you’re an anal-retentive C. I’m being judgmental, obviously. For me to say, okay, look, I see it so clearly, Matt. What the hell? Why aren’t you changing? And if not, I’m just gonna pull the plug and change it anyway, whether you’re on board or not.

Matty: [00:25:10] Yep. There’s no— yeah, exactly. You’re losing that emotional IQ. You’re losing that. Correct.

Bill: That’s correct. And then you can see what’s gonna happen with that. But understanding, wait a second, I need to package it differently. So this is where the salesperson comes in. I mean, when you think about somebody who’s really good in sales, they’re very, very good at reading and then adapting, and that becomes the key. Now oftentimes it’s self-serving, but so it is for us practitioners.

Matty: Yeah, I mean, this still is self-serving because we want to make a change that’s going to make our life better, correct? Because it’s going to make our organization better. It’s, it’s whatever it might be, right on.

Bill: And so, you know, you also mentioned something too, that yes, whole organizations can have a personality, but then there are pockets. Like say for example, most sales organizations inside an organization, doesn’t matter even what type of organization it is, most of the sales organizations that I’ve seen are I and D coupled. So we’re vibrant personalities and we like to get stuff done. And so when you look at change, and change management for a Di type or an Id type, very tough because they’re like, yeah, that’s great, that’s awesome, that’s great, I got it, I got it, I got it. And then it’s like, I don’t really know what you’re talking about, but I’ll be very enthusiastic up front. So practitioners, don’t be sold by their enthusiasm because that’s only just the part of it. And so being able to understand that there’s a wealth of information out there on being able to understand yourself first and be able to identify others.

Matty: [00:26:42] You know, whatever— we’ll put some, we’ll put some links in the show notes to some identifying things and some tools to use for that, for sure. Yeah, I found a lot of value out of being able to identify that, both as, you know, from a leadership perspective. It’s interesting that I am not in that position anymore. You know, now I’m in a— as an individual contributor, knowing that is still incredibly valuable. I think it’s a very valuable tool for just any type of relationship piece, work-related, to be able to understand. You know, you talk about managing up, you know, being able for me to understand how my management wants to communicate and makes it easier for me to be able to not manipulate him, right? Because I think he listens to this podcast, so I don’t want him to say that I manipulate him. But, you know, but to be able to to communicate, you know, appropriately. So I think that’s a great tool. And I think a lot of this stuff gets really frustrating in this space as well because we’re all knowledge workers, we’re technologists. This is all that hippie-dippy fuzzy warm and huggy bullshit, right? And this is why in a lot of ways there’s some stuff out there, there’s this whole idea that, you know, if you’re doing DevOps in an enterprise, it’s just AAMs. The culture doesn’t matter because you can’t put culture on a marketing report or whatever reports that show the graphs and the hockey sticks and everything. And that’s just a whole bunch of kumbaya, let’s get together. But I think, like you said, you don’t change the culture. The culture changes because of things you want to do, but you have to do that, right? Like, you can’t get this stuff for free. You know, you can’t say like, okay, well, I’m gonna have a share, I’m gonna do sharing but I’m not going to change the way that people work together, right, to do that.

Bill: [00:28:34] So this is the tough work.

Matty: Yeah.

Bill: So at the end of change, typically one of two things happens. Either you have commitment to the change, or you have deadly compliance to the change, or you have no change. But when, when you actually have it adopted, and our job as practitioners— can I, can I see the difference? Between compliance and commitment? Can I read the difference between compliance and commitment? Because some people will be passive-aggressive and they’ll say, oh, I’m completely committed, but yet I won’t. I still want to adopt.

Matty: And that’s the compliance. That’s a, hey, I’m doing what you said. You can’t, you can’t fire me. You can’t write me up on my review. I, I filled out my TPS report or whatever. But, but commitment is, I believe in my—

Bill: so then if you were my client, if you were my client and I say, okay, so Matt, so how’s that work? For you? Because I know, I know you’re checking the box, but how’s it working? And that’s where the dialogue has to begin versus being defensive or saying, great, I have a victory, I’m going to high-five somebody because Matt’s on board. No, Matt’s not on board. Matt just says he was coerced or he is now complying to do this change. And I do believe, based on CAMS, I think you can measure that.

Matty: [00:29:57] Yeah.

Bill: And it’s hard to measure, but I, I know you can measure whether people are committed or not. And I think one of the key initiatives around, around distinguishing between compliance and commitment is number one, can I assess somebody’s engagement level around the change, around the template, around the new form, around whatever it is? Can I assess their level of engagement? At that level of engagement, now we’re going to see a departure. Are they gonna take an active route or a passive route? Passive route is very clear. I’ll just do what I’m told. I got it. I got it. I got it. And I’ll have all my papers and I’ll have everything ready to go and I will comply and I will do it that way. In the active route, what you’re gonna start to see is you’re gonna start to see your clients become more curious. They’re gonna start to take more initiative in giving you back ideas. They will articulate process improvement right before your very eyes, before you even ask for them. They will give you feedback about how it’s working, what’s not, how to tweak it, whatever that is. They’re all of a sudden gonna now take an active role in that. And one of the key distinguishing factors between compliance and commitment is that activity. So if you have a client, could be all pissed off. I, so just so you know, commitment doesn’t mean happy. Commitment doesn’t mean, oh, I love you, Matt.

Matty: [00:31:14] That’s awesome.

Bill: You’ve saved the world. You’ve saved my life.

Matty: No.

Bill: No, what commitment means is I might be really pissed off at you right now, but I’m really engaged in this conversation. I know we together, we can figure this out. So let’s have this debate. Let’s have a really good, robust debate around this. That shows my commitment versus my hands are up.

Matty: I don’t care.

Bill: It doesn’t matter to me anymore. I don’t give a shit. I’ll just do what you’re telling me to do because maybe it’s been mandated. Maybe it’s because I have to keep my job. Maybe it’s I’m tired, I have change fatigue, I don’t know, but my hands are up and I’ve just complied. And that to me is what we have to get good at about the practitioner piece because it is touchy-feely. It is soft. You know, the hard part of change are the numbers and the technology and the solutions. The soft part of change is the relationship and getting to someplace called commitment.

Matty: And I think that’s the challenge. So again, we keep coming back to that, to the measurement of that commit, and I like that commitment versus compliance. So, for example, if we talk about one of the outcomes that we would want out of this is say, hey, we’re releasing software at a greater velocity.

Bill: [00:32:25] Okay.

Matty: Right? That’s very easy to measure. Those are numbers. That’s how many builds, how many releases per day with X number of defects. Boom, I can put that into a dashboard, I can put it in a database, and I can watch the, you know, the things go up and down and up and down. But then we talk about measuring, and I agree with you, I— that that’s a way to qualify the commitment versus compliance. And I think, uh, it’s, it’s hard to quantify that. And I also think, though, that it’s probably a little bit of a cop-out from a management perspective, because I think that’s kind of the role of a leader, is being able to identify that. It’s not something I can put on a chart, but I should be able to say I— if, if the organization— if I want my organization to be one that moves with velocity and is an innovative organization, then it’s absolutely required that my contributors, that the people in my organization, are committed.

Bill: [00:33:26] Correct.

Matty: And it’s, it’s not something— and, and I think the other things are indicators, the needles that move will be the velocity of software, the increase in quality.

Bill: It’s exponential. When you have commitment, the quantifiable pieces will be exponential, and you start to see that. That’s how they’re coupled together. As you were talking, one of the things I was thinking about is, as practitioners and technicians, do we like this part of our jobs called influencing without authority? Do we like this part of our jobs of being salespeople, of being nimble, emotionally intelligent consultants? Yeah, I’ll be honest with you, you have to.

Matty: Yeah, and I think that’s a big challenge because I think a lot of people don’t.

Bill: Correct. So like, just get on board. I don’t want to have to deal with your emotions. I want to have to manage your resistance. I don’t want to do any of that stuff. Just because it makes so much sense graphically, quantifiably, whatever word you want to use. It just— look at that, it’s so freaking obvious that we should be doing X, Y, and Z. I don’t like it.

Matty: [00:34:40] I don’t care.

Bill: Yeah, I really don’t care. Just do it, and then you see what happens.

Matty: And I think if this is important to you, you’ll make that change, or not that change, you will, you will do that, that thing. You’ll, you’ll, you’ll eat that frog, right?

Bill: You will. You, you will. More than that, you will find satisfaction in the pursuit of commitment. And that’s— and that for technicians, that’s very difficult. So because we want to make sure that we release software at X pace, right? Yeah, that’s how— that’s my value. And if you leave me alone, I can make sure I do everything right, but I don’t have to deal with the people part of it. The best change leaders out there don’t see the people part of it as something they gotta deal with. They see it as something that’s interesting, fun, essential part of the process. The top of, top of our podcast today, you talked about the how. It’s the how. So do you practitioners out there, do you like the how as much as you like the what. Because very honestly, you have to.

Matty: [00:35:55] I think you have to, or you have to find someone who can help you.

Bill: There it is.

Matty: Because that could also be within your organization, right? You may sit there and I may be, you know, a TechOps person that says, I’m a sysadmin. Yep. I just know I am— I don’t have the skills to particularly do this. I don’t have the desire to particularly do this. But who’s someone in the organization that is already at least halfway on board with me that I can buddy up with that maybe has some of that emotional intelligence and has some of those skills that I’m not going to them and selling this to them, so to speak, from nothing, right? But then they could help me, you know, they can help but be a bit of a proxy. I think that’s another piece as well. And I also feel like I like that idea a lot. If you can do that across silos, it shows the value of the idea. So if I say again, I’m an ops person, and I, as it may happen, and I’m like, I’m not really good at this kind of like, um, selling piece, but I know, you know, I’ve got my buddy that I have lunch with who’s a developer or is a QA tester, is in a slightly different discipline, but they have that skill. If we buddy up and sell it together, it does 2 things. One is we’re complementing our skills for how we’re going to discuss this for the change, but it’s also illustrating the change that we actually want to make, which is the more collaboration.

Bill: [00:37:20] So, and that’s how culture changes. You see what you just did? So you just, you just wove a story together that then at the end says, look at how the culture can change because of this collaboration. That’s right on. So let’s get specific about an example. So let’s just say you are going to launch a piece of software or a product that’s going to have a sales impact in an organization, and it’s going to impact our salespeople. And you find the salespeople to be high maintenance, flighty, big personalities, um, all the people, all the negative stuff that salespeople get stuck with. But they make the cash register ring, so we have to tolerate them. So, you know, we got to have these salespeople out there selling, and you have no ability You have no patience. You have no interest in winning over these salespeople. So let’s buddy up. So you, Matt, I’m going to be the technician behind this. I’m going to drive all the technology. I have all the product we’re going to do with all the development, all of those types of things. But you, because you have an affinity for it, you have an interest in it, and you are credible with our salespeople. You’re going to be running focus groups weekly. And it basically, how’s it going? How do you feel? What’s working? What’s not? And you’re going to actually lead a structured venting session. Why? Because a lot of times, and this is a, this is a stereotype, but a lot of times our salespeople do possess that high I influencing and high D dominance together, coupled together. They need to get all of their emotions out. So it’s almost like a therapeutic session. So guess what? Over the next 6 months, Matt, your job is to run therapy sessions with our salespeople. I’ll be back here behind the scenes. You feed me, I’ll feed you, but let’s dovetail and let’s make sure that they’re on board. Let’s make sure that they are what? Committed. So actually going out there and structuring venting sessions, structuring resistance sessions, sitting down and just listening and saying, how’s it working? And let them throw F-bombs at you and throw crap at you and spit at you and cry and, you know, pound desks and all that stuff. Let ’em do that. Because through that catharsis then comes what? Commitment. But somebody has to be able to do that. Somebody has to be willing to do that. Now, many practitioners are saying that’s too much, that’s too much maintenance. I am not going to, you know, feed that ego of theirs. I’m not going to—

Matty: [00:39:42] and then fill in the blank.

Bill: Well, if you don’t try, or at least make a concerted effort, then you’re going to get what?

Matty: Compliance. Or nothing in the case of wherever you’re coming from. You won’t be able to do— because I’m thinking to take that example and put it in context of what we talk about on this show, which that was close. But if I, again, taking it to saying like, okay, I want to make change within the technology part of my organization, I can be, you know, there’s, because again, there’s a reason not everybody in your organization is a change agent. If everybody was a change agent, nothing would ever get done because everybody’s changing everything. But let’s say I’ve decided I want to help change my organization. So part of that, like you said, well, if it’s too much work, well then I guess you actually probably really don’t— I hate this, it’s going to sound like an asshole, but then you probably don’t want it enough, right? You want to change your organization and make it better. Shit’s hard, right? So that’s part of it. But one of the things you can do, and we’ve seen this in when these organizational transformations are successful, is you involve as many people as possible. Justin Arbuckle, who is with Chef now, but he was with GE at the time, and he talked about how they did their DevOps transformation there. And one of their things was anybody who wanted come along was invited along. It wasn’t like, we’re doing this here and we’ll, by the way, security people will tell you about it when we’re done and anything. So you do things like brown bags. You say like, how can we make this better? And then to your point, starting, I think that’s great to start with the venting session and say, we’re gonna, and you don’t call it and say, we’re gonna have the DevOps brown bag. You just say like, hey, we wanna get together once a week. We’re gonna have kind of a loosely structured brown bag. You know, to kind of just talk about like, how can we make things better within this part of the organization? So what you’re doing is you’re kind of capturing all the pain. That’s cool. And then it gives you the ability, and again, if you’re someone who’s already been drinking the DevOps Kool-Aid, you kind of have to take that step back and like don’t tip your hand right away. Yeah. And don’t sit there and go, well, you know what? Oh, that thing you just complained about, we can fix that with Puppet or whatever. You just sort of listen, you capture it all, and then you can put together a Right. And a thing, and to be honest, that was when I was doing more consulting before I was at Chef and was doing kind of, we go into an organization to help them figure out how to do some of this.

[00:41:57] Well, what do you do? You go and you interview the stakeholders. And mostly what it was, was a venting session. And one of the questions I asked everybody was, I have my magic IT wand and I’m going to give you one wish. What’s your wish? And frankly, I would sit and spend an hour with everybody I talked to. And the only question that really mattered was that one, right? That was the only thing that I really cared about was if I could change, if I could change your world, how could I do it? I think that’s a way you can, you can gather the information and you’ve also brought people along. So when you start to propose these changes up the wire, it wasn’t just this thing you came up with. That’s part of how you can see, you can say, hey, I’ve been talking to the testers and the DBAs and the security folks and I have all this information. And we know the pain. And so I think that’s, that’s a way to bring everybody along.

Bill: Well, we know the pain and we know the fix. One of the keys that you also said, Matt, was really interesting. So in those venting sessions, what I don’t want to do is get defensive. I don’t want to say, oh, we can fix that, done, done, what else you got, what else you got, right? So just, just listen, just, just be patient listeners in that moment, and it’s just unbelievable. Now Can I go too far in structured venting? Can I feed the neuroses of an organization by doing that? The answer is yes. So be sure that these structured venting sessions don’t become some kind of crazy codependent thing that happens. It’s like, I like to hear you vent and you like to vent. So let’s just keep doing this really crazy shit that’s going to happen. At some point I have to say enough. Thanks so much. Thank you. That was awesome.

Matty: [00:43:34] So you don’t call it your weekly brown bag venting session, right? That may be what you’re getting out of it, but you’re—

Bill: but you don’t want to continue to feed that really strange codependent relationship that quite honestly can happen between consultant and client. It absolutely can. And so it’s just like, oh, I’d love to hear you vent. So just keep doing it. And then we all feel better, but no, no. Then that gets a little messed up.

Matty: So one thing I want to make sure that people that are listening are thinking about, and I’ve had this kind of thought in general, is so just when you said that what can happen between consultant and client, this is if you’re an evangelist, if you’re someone who’s trying to change your organization, that is kind of— it’s like being a consultant. It is internally. And when I look at how consulting organizations that I’ve been a part of and the way that we do practice It can— that absolutely can happen internally too. You don’t have to be the consultant that’s being brought in to be the external expert to do that, but you— that’s kind of what you are. You kind of are an internal consultant.

Bill: [00:44:36] You are. And so that goes back to one of our first questions, which is around mandated change. And if I have the power, can I mandate it? Well, of course I can. But then what happens oftentimes as an internal consultant, I will defer to power. And that’s, that’s something that we have to avoid at at every turn that we possibly can because you’re the expert.

Matty: And you’ll sit there and say, hey, the boss said, so you got to do it.

Bill: Boss says is credibility, a strike against your credibility every single time.

Matty: What’s the— or still appeal to authority or whatever.

Bill: So my hands are tied. I don’t really agree. I think this is bullshit, blah, blah, blah, but you got to do it. We got to do it. No, never, ever, ever, ever. So, so in those moments you start to say, oh, okay. So I see it differently. Higher power of mine, here’s what I think is going to happen if we go your route, and have the courage to actually have those conversations. But internal power is very, very difficult to maneuver. It’s easier to structure a venting session with brown bag than it is to push back on authority.

Matty: [00:45:45] Especially because we have this tendency within, definitely within IT, I imagine it’s not just within IT. We’ve talked about this before too, about it’s a little bit ironic that we look at command and control as a model that we want to use, and the irony is that the military has not used command and control since the days of Napoleon. It’s maneuver warfare because as a general, I don’t have all of the situational awareness of this particular thing. As a CTO, I don’t have all of this information, so I I can’t mandate because I don’t understand. Not because I’m stupid, but I just don’t have the information about what all of my troops are doing and how they work and what their challenges are. And what my job should be is to say, these are the outcomes, but within these outcomes, I want you to get there. Yep. You know, so, so that’s the problem with mandate, right? I’m going to come down and it’s what makes— again, it’s kind of the opposite. We said a practitioner says It’s crystal clear to me, why don’t you get it? The CTO can also sit and say, do what I said, and the DBA says, you don’t understand, we have replicated databases and therefore this doesn’t work, but okay, I’ll do your thing. And then when shit breaks, they go, well, I did what you told me to do, you know.

Bill: [00:47:03] So, so those moments in time, I can, you know, see that meeting happening, right? Those moments in time are so crucial because what we want, and we always want this, We want very aware clients. We want clients who say, I see a vision and you all will help us get there. But we also know that there are naive, egomaniacal, I don’t know, agenda-ridden CTOs or fill in the C that just says, do it my way. And I’ve read a book. I’ve read a study. Or I’ve compared us to our competitor. And they do it. So do that. And so at those moments in time, I do believe that that pushback is incredibly important and very difficult to do.

Matty: So another thing too is, and I think we talked about this a little bit, but I think it’s one of, one of the things we could talk about being able to evaluate is, you know, different sized organizations, they, they change at different rates, right? You know, it’s It’s easier— turning a big ship is harder than, you know, cornering on a motorbike.

Bill: [00:48:10] Always.

Matty: And I think as far as addressing it, that’s one thing, but being able to— I think that the speed at which you change is not necessarily directly related to your size. It’s the agility of the organization. It is. What might be some tips to be able to figure out how do we evaluate the agility of your organization for making change?

Bill: So a couple of key data points that I look at. Number one, risk tolerance. Risk tolerance. I don’t care if you’re a 26,000-person global organization or whether you have 5 people sitting around an office. Size at this point doesn’t matter because risk tolerance is number one. So do I encourage risk? Do I encourage innovation? Do I punish people who have been risky? What do I do with that? So that’s, that’s number one. Number 2 is speed of decision-making. Are we bound by hierarchy? Are we bound by politics? Are we bound by 25-level approval levels? Watch how, watch how a position gets filled. Watch how a capital expenditure gets approved. Watch how many signatures are on the constitution. Right? You know, is it one? Is it none? And watch that. Watch the siloed nature of how many people have to weigh in. So, for example, when we were doing our work together, the organization that we were working with had a very over-consensus-driven culture. They have to have, well, let’s make— okay, I think we made a decision, but let’s make sure we get X personnel involved. Oh, I think we’ve made my decision. Now let’s get the other person involved. It’s like, well, wait a second, but you made the decision. I know, but then let’s meet to meet and let’s reschedule another meeting so we can meet again. I can’t tell you how many times I’ve heard that example inside that system around let’s just meet and just to make sure, just to make sure that tells you something. So don’t judge it. Just use that as a data point.

Matty: [00:50:13] Right?

Bill: So risk tolerance, number 1, speed of decision-making, number 2, levels of authority, number 3. And that those decision-making pieces. Then the 4th thing I start to look at is empowerment. How empowered is the first level that should be empowered? Most times there’s a tendency to delegate authority upward in an organization. It’s like, well, I can’t make the decision. Let’s make Matt.

Matty: Yeah. That’s above my pay grade.

Bill: That’s above my pay grade. Well, Matt can’t make the decision. Let’s have his boss make it. Well, he or she can’t make this. Let’s say, Like, timeout. Can we start to change the direction of empowerment down to the organization? What you want to be able to do as a consultant, as a practitioner, is to say, wait a second, why are you involved in this decision? Shouldn’t that be solved 3 levels below you? And start to look at that. So those empowerment pieces become really, really, really key for me. Then the last piece I also look at is the voice of the customer. You know, so if you can ever get any customer data, external customers, right? So the organization’s customer base, do they see the organization as swift, nimble, decisive, responsive? How do they give customer service? How do they get product? How do they, how do they do product returns? How do they, whatever it is. So how satisfied are they? Because oftentimes what I see, which is interesting, is we are more nimble and adaptive with our external than we are internal. Now, maybe one of the reasons why we can be so swift and responsive to our clients is because we have a very zipped up process-bound C conscientiousness culture, and all of our processes are streamlined and we can turn a decision on a dime to address any customer concern. Voice of customer is a very important data point. So I, I do believe that large organizations can change pretty swiftly, and small organizations are tougher to change, to be honest with you. Especially, um, I don’t know how many of your practitioners might deal with family systems. If there’s a smallish family system where the dad is at the helm and the 2 brothers are under, and then the sister is the head of operations, and then You know, the ants in marketing. Those are, I gotta tell you, of all my clients in all of my years, the most difficult clients to quote unquote help change. Because that’s, that’s, but you, you think there are 500 people in there. Yeah. They should be able to turn on a dime.

Matty: [00:52:47] Yeah.

Bill: What the hell, right? Spend a couple hundred thousand dollars and do X, Y, and Z. Well, you know, that’s just, that’s just not how we’ve always done it. We’ve never done it that way. Grandpa didn’t do it that way.

Matty: You know, da da da da da. You know.

Bill: God bless them. I mean, they keep America running and keep America working. But, um, don’t let size scare you, or don’t let size lead you to an assumption that, oh, this great big ship, you know, the QE2, will never ever change in the harbor. It’s just— it’s never going to be able to make it. No, but I— maybe it can.

Matty: And then sometimes you’re not actually turning the QE2, especially in a large organization. It’s really made up of a lot of smaller organizations. You don’t have to turn the whole ship. You can— unlike a ship, you can turn parts of it.

Bill: You bet. And so go to the kitchen. Yeah, let’s go to the kitchen and start doing process improvement around there, or whatever it might be, right? I’m going to keep going on this, on this— how do I look at size? Yeah, but also don’t underestimate new leadership. New leadership will invariably impact all of these pieces that I just talked about. I had a client who went from a high I type of leadership to a high C type of leadership. External hire, not, not an internal, okay? External hire. And we had been doing a lot of training, and people were all over this training, and they’re like, we’re feeling so empowered. We have— it’s boundarylessness, and employee engagement scores are off the roof. And I mean, people are happy about all this other stuff. He comes in and he has a pedigree degree and he has exactly how he wants his organization to run. And he comes with an incredibly high C type with him. So conscientiousness, rules, methodology, template, all those types of things. And he and his leadership single-handedly, and for a lot of the better. So I don’t want to dismiss what he did, changed the culture of the organization significantly. And, um, right now they’re more profitable than they ever have been. You know, when I— and they’re small, they’re probably, gosh, there may be 150 people in the organization. I’ll say what state they’re in, but about 150 people. And, um, the retention is still very, very good. They’ve been able to preserve, but the feel of the organization is definitely different. So don’t underestimate when, especially from an external standpoint, well, even sometimes internal leadership changes can have a big impact.

Matty: [00:55:28] So just before we go into our checkouts, is there any last bit of advice, uh, things to think about to people when they, when they want to to bring the culture? And I know we said you don’t set out and say, I’m having a project to change my culture, but just anything to think about, or do you think we got it summed up?

Bill: Sure. So let me just— sorry, because I, you know, as a consultant, I don’t want to give too much consulting.

Matty: Of course you don’t want to get— yeah, you also don’t want to give too much of it away for free.

Bill: I’ve been the consultant that gives everything away for— since I really believe in giving it away. So Number one, can I read the organization? Can I read the business? Can I read key stakeholders? Massively key for me. And I just threw out, you know, a DiSC profile system. And so I can, I can, I can marry it to that or whatever, whatever psychometric or whatever kind of culture tool you might want to use. But, but that’s, that’s number one. Can I read? Do I have the ability to read? That’s going to be coupled then with, do I like this thing called reading? Or would I rather just program and make sure I fix and I develop solutions based on technology that are going to do X, Y, and Z? Because as we talked about, either I have to, or I got to get a buddy to balance that out. Because bottom line, organizations will change and they will take and adopt change based on commitment, not on compliance. And the worst thing you want to have at the end of a change initiative is compliance. Sometimes it’s even grudging compliance, and that’s the worst form of resistance. Ben, that leads me to when you see resistance, actively, actively surface it. Structure a venting session. Ask the questions. How’s it going? What’s not? You seem upset. Let’s talk about this. And really actively use that because oftentimes what happens during times of change for the recipient of change is they go through an identity crisis. Something changed. I’m not going to be good in the new world. I won’t have as much power in the new world. I like my old world better. I was really good at that. Um, what, what, I mean, there’s so many reasons why I don’t want to do anything as far as what’s going to be new, but oftentimes it rests with my identity crisis at that moment. So being able to read, being able to like reading, be able to be adaptive, and then obviously not go too far where I start to become codependent becomes key.

Matty: [00:58:04] Absolutely.

Bill: There’s tons out there.

Matty: We can send links and all that other stuff, but it’s a, um, yeah, we’ll add some, we’ll add, we’ll add some links and some, some items like that into the show notes. But let’s go into our checkout. So Bill, what do you have for our audience to check out?

Bill: Well, when you gave me the assignment of these checkouts, I wasn’t quite sure where to go with all these checkouts. So, um, the way I feed myself is not through reading more about change and business books. I read a lot of fiction. So a couple of my top favorites right now, one’s called The Martian by Andy Weir. Okay, awesome book about a guy who gets stranded on Mars and they got to rescue him, or not. And another one that’s really fascinating and complex is called The Bone Clocks. By David Mitchell, and there’s a little bit of how to read in that particular book. I’m always drawn to some very complex pieces, so that’s what I read. So I read a lot of fiction. I will recommend a book that I have gone to for a number of years called Managing Transitions by a guy named William Bridges. I’ll go to that one time and time and time and time again. It is in paperback and I actually sit down and read it with my clients. And so it’s a very facilitative book. So I thought I would throw you one of my checkouts from also from a practitioner standpoint.

Matty: [00:59:27] Fantastic. So I just have one checkout this week and it’s a website and an iPhone app and there may be an Android app for it as well, but it’s called Habit RPG, like role-playing game. And I heard about it the other day. I’ve been checking it out and trying it. And so it’s for— I’ve been looking at developing better rituals and better habit development. And so what you do with this is you go in and you set habits you want to achieve. And when you sit there and say, for example, I want to make sure that I meditated today or I did 10 push-ups or whatever, I just click and say I do it and I get experience points and I can trade it in and my little avatar gets a sword. You know, it’s like a role-playing game. It’s like a silly little thing. But it’s gamification of habit creation. And I’ve been playing with it for about, I don’t know, about 3 or 4 days so far. So I’ll let you know in a future episode maybe if I stick with it. But I’m a big, you know, believer, like organization and all these things are always very challenging for me. And rituals are something I believe in. I just have always had a really hard time getting to them, you know, getting to like sort of my daily, like, okay, every morning I do this. Every morning I get up, I do exercises, I assign my tasks for the day, I floss my teeth, I take my meds, I do whatever. In the evening, I review all my stuff and that’s the only time I check my email, blah, blah, blah. So, I’ve been trying to work on ways to get better about that. So, I’m trying it with this fun little game. We’ll see how it goes.

Bill: [01:00:58] Any chance there’s an application to become a better change leader inside a system? Could I ritualize emotional intelligence?

Matty: It could be. Well, if you think of it, then maybe, you know, that could be, uh, I will be more empathetic today. Yeah, exactly. Period. Right. Well, that could actually work with a thing like that if you wanted to say— because there’s also— it has this thing where you can set from a habit a positive slash negative. So like, for example, I have one set which is drank water, drank soda. So if I’m like, I drink soda, I click the negative and I lose points because I did a thing I didn’t want to do. If I drink water, I click the positive. So it could be If you’re talking about how you’re interacting with people, it has a heads and a tails, right? Or a pro and a con. It’s not just, did I do the good thing? It also has negative habits, which you can say, this was a bad thing, so I did it, and I get penalized for doing it, so it encourages me to not do it.

Bill: So, I mean, to put it into bizarre terms, because I’ve not seen this app, this is the very first time I’ve ever heard of that, but let’s just say my job is to manage resistance. And today I manage resistance. My negative would be I got defensive.

Matty: [01:02:06] Yeah.

Bill: And my positive would be I facilitated.

Matty: Absolutely. Yeah, I think that would totally work. It’d be kind of cool.

Bill: That’s very cool.

Matty: That’s a good idea.

Bill: I will check it out.

Matty: Yeah, absolutely. It’s called Habit RPG. So, Bill, thank you so much. This hour just absolutely flew by. I’m hoping that this was really, really educational for our audience. We haven’t really talked about this before and you answered a lot of questions, I think. People have around how to, how to do this. So thank you very much for joining us tonight.

Bill: My pleasure.

Matty: So also, as a reminder, we have a newsletter, arresteddevops.com/bananastand. It’s the best way to know about upcoming podcast episodes and cool news with DevOps. We also have an iPhone app if you dig that kind of thing, which you can download for free at arresteddevops.com/iphone. Thanks as always to our awesome sponsors, Check them out at arresteddevops.com/pagerduty or arresteddevops.com/datadog33. Thanks again to Bill Joy for joining us. And loyal listeners, if you enjoy our show, we would appreciate it if you would visit arresteddevops.com/itunes and leave us a review in the iTunes Store.

[01:03:14] No matter what you have to say, we would love to get your feedback. You can check us out on the web at arresteddevops.com or @ArrestedDevOps on Twitter. We’re always happy to get your input, ideas, or feedback via email at shows@arresteddevops.com. Please let us know any ideas you have for future episodes, and we would love to know what you think of this episode. Please leave comments on the episode page, which is arresteddevops.com/32. I’m Matt at Matt Stratton. This has been Arrested DevOps. And remember, there’s always DevOps in the banana stand.